Item Attribute Question

[tfjern]

Briefly, and I hope not too confusingly, I have made an item attribute labeled "TAG," and have been adding values steadily to various items on the tree (e.g., "Important," "Follow Up," "Research," and so on).

If I want to do a search on TAG on a particular item that includes two or more values, say "Important" and "Follow UP," how can this be done, without having to create a new TAG called both "Important" and "Follow UP"?

If I add two values in the Item Attribute Pane in TAG, this creates a new TAG (for example, "Important" and "Follow UP"). It would be nice if in the Item Attribute Pane we could simply add values to each Item and separate these values by perhaps a semi-colon or the like.

[ashwken]

Originally posted by tfjern
Briefly, and I hope not too confusingly, I have made an item attribute labeled "TAG," and have been adding values steadily to various items on the tree (e.g., "Important," "Follow Up," "Research," and so on).

If I want to do a search on TAG on a particular item that includes two or more values, say "Important" and "Follow UP," how can this be done, without having to create a new TAG called both "Important" and "Follow UP"?

If I add two values in the Item Attribute Pane in TAG, this creates a new TAG (for example, "Important" and "Follow UP"). It would be nice if in the Item Attribute Pane we could simply add values to each Item and separate these values by perhaps a semi-colon or the like.

First, when you created the attribute TAG did you check Auto-complete (if not, it can be done after the fact), this builds an index of values for this attribute - it's this index which provides the drop-down list of existing values during data entry and the drop-down list for the Value column in Advanced Search.

Essentially, your TAG attribute is just a user-defined text-string and you can separate multiple vaules as you see fit, but the important thing is checking the Auto-complete option for the Atttribute. This will provide the list of existing values and allow you to force consistency when assigning (or creating) multiple values for a given TAG.

EDIT:
You can pre-poulate the values that will be present in this drop-down list by typing the desired values into the List Values text area of the Attribute, just leave the Restrict checkbox unchecked if you want the list to "grow" from new values entered during subsequent data entry.

[tfjern]

I'll try again, and let's avoid using Ultra Recallese (i.e., the wooden "explanations" characteristic of the UR "help" file).

I have an Item Attribute called "TAG."

I have the "Auto-complete values from other items" checked.

I have added so far (and more will be added as time goes on) certain values for TAG: let's call them for now A, B, C, D, and E.

In the Item Attribute pane for a certain Item on the Data Explorer tree I want to combine both the values of, say, A and B.

The drop down menu displays all the values already added, of course (A,B,C, D, and E), but apparently if two or more values are added after TAG, say A and B, that becomes a new value. What would be better if we could just simply add values on the fly, so to speak. Apparently this can't be done.

Thanks.

[ashwken]

Originally posted by tfjern

...The drop down menu displays all the values already added, of course (A,B,C, D, and E), but apparently if two or more values are added after TAG, say A and B, that becomes a new value. What would be better if we could just simply add values on the fly, so to speak. Apparently this can't be done.

Thanks.

The index that is built when you check Auto-complete is an index that allows for ALL values, but only displays UNIQUE values in the drop-down list.

Item values for your TAG attribute:

A
B
C
A, B
A, B, C

When you create a new Item the values available for TAG are presented in the drop-down list, you can choose from these existing values or give the new Item a new value (D, E). This new value is added on-the-fly and will be present in the drop-down list for the next new Item you create.

If you want to change the TAG value for an exisitng Item, you can choose from the drop-down list of exisitng values, or create a new value (F).

From your original post it sounds like you want to track the evolving status of an Item, perhaps I misunderstood.

[$bill]

tfjern, I think I see the database concept that is giving you some trouble in your database design. Seems you have empirically figured this out but maybe this explaination will help you avoid some future frustration.

Item       Attribute         Value

Item1          TAG          Important
Item2          TAG          Followup
Item3          TAG          Important; Followup
Item4          TAG          Important Followup
Item5          TAG          Important  Followup  (note the 2 spaces between Important and Followup)

The attribute TAG is of type String (for text information). TAG's value will be anything you can type in the Attributes Value box.
An attribute can only have 1 value...thus the value of Item3's TAG = Important; Followup
It does NOT contain 2 values (value= Important and value= Followup)

Search- UR will parse the Value of TAG into keywords. So a search of "TAG contains keyword Followup" will return items 2,3,4,5.
A search of "TAG contains keyword Important AND TAG contains keyword Followup" will return items 3,4,5.

"Auto-complete values from other items" checked- This creates a pull down list of the values that you entered FOR OTHER ITEMS. So the selection for TAG so far is 'Important', 'Followup', 'Important; Followup', 'Important Followup', and 'Important Followup'<<with the 2 spaces. There will be one entry for each unique value in the other items.

Perhaps after consideration, you might revisit your premise of only using one attribute to label (tag) your items. ie add an attribute= Followup of type Yes/No.

Hope this isn't too wooden or too presumptive, I do have a tin ear......

[ashwken]

Originally posted by $bill
tfjern, I think I see the database concept that is giving you some trouble in your database design. Seems you have empirically figured this out but maybe this explaination will help you avoid some future frustration.

Item       Attribute         Value

Item1          TAG          Important
Item2          TAG          Followup
Item3          TAG          Important; Followup
Item4          TAG          Important Followup
Item5          TAG          Important  Followup  (note the 2 spaces)

...Search- UR will parse the Value of TAG into keywords. So a search of "TAG contains keyword Followup" will return items 2,3,4,5.

A search of "TAG contains keyword Important AND TAG contains keyword Followup" will return items 3,4,5.

Thanks, for filling in the blanks.

Exploring the Search function:
if you standardized on the value shown for Item-3, then a search of "TAG equals Important" should only return Item-1.

if you wanted ALL the Items that have the same value as Item-3 (or any compound value), then the EQUALS comparator and the drop-down list should make it easy to search for any compound value.

[tfjern]

One final attempt, and if I still can't communicate what I am trying to say, then I will declare defeat and depart the field.

1. I have created an "Item Attribute" called "TAG."

2. I have the "Auto-complete values from other items" checked.

3. I have added so far certain separate values for TAG: let's call them for now values A, B, C, D, and E. That's five separate values.

4. Let's say I add a new "Info Item" in the "Data Explorer," and then insert a "TAG" to the Attribute" column in the "Item Attribute Pane."

5. In the "Value" column of the same pane I have a drop down menu that already has five separate choices for "TAG": A, B, C, D, and E.

6. Let's say I type "A" and "E," which (unfortunately) become a new value ("A E"), which is NOT what I want to happen.

7. Instead, it would be nice if in UR I could type "A" and then a semi-colon (comma, bar, two spaces, whatever), then type "E", which would NOT create a new value (namely, "A E," that is, combining two existing values). If I were to type "B" and "H", separated by a semi-colon (comma, whatever), I would have entered an old TAG value ("B") and added a new one ("H"), and NOT a new value called "B H". Apparently this can't be done in UR, or am I missing something?

[Jon Polish]

I think you would like to be able to make multiple, non-contiguous selections from the drop-down list. In some other programs, you can hold down the CTRL key while clicking the desired names in the list. Is this what you want to do?

I too woulld like to be able to do this, but I am afraiid it is not possible with UR (yet?). My work-around, as you alluded to earlier, is to have two or more attributes populated with your list and to select the combinations individually, one from each attribute.

Jon

[vogelap]

Seems reasonable to want to be able to arbitrarily tag/attribute as one pleases.

[ashwken]

Originally posted by Jon Polish
I think you would like to be able to make multiple, non-contiguous selections from the drop-down list. In some other programs, you can hold down the CTRL key while clicking the desired names in the list. Is this what you want to do?

I too woulld like to be able to do this, but I am afraiid it is not possible with UR (yet?). My work-around, as you alluded to earlier, is to have two or more attributes populated with your list and to select the combinations individually, one from each attribute.

Jon

Thanks for this insight, I've been trying to understand the goal.

Wondering, as things currently stand in UR would this accomplish the goal:

In the Data Explorer create an Item called Tags, it's children are the individual values for TAG. For each Item you want to "tag", Link that Item to the desired child Items under the Tags Item. By working thru the Alt-L interface you can select the non-contiguous Items you desire.

Downside, creating and linking to the "tags" is more laborous than the indexed drop-down list. Essentially each Item can have many tags, and tag can have many items.

Is there another way to achieve these one-to-many relationships?

[quant]

alternativelly, you could use user defined keywords, say TAG_Important, TAG_Followup, etc, and use the item keywords pane to add/edit/remove/search, or search and click on "Search only user-defined keywords" ...

[tfjern]

To put a merciful end to this long, confusing thread: UR currently does not contain the feature discussed above: namely,

... after creating an attribute in the Item Attributes pane, separate values can't be listed one after another after the attribute (separated by, say, a semi-colon or the like).

Perhaps Kinook could include this feature in future editions. It certainly would be convenient.

[quant]

should be doable
http://dev.mysql.com/tech-resources/...-datatype.html

[$bill]

Originally posted by tfjern
To put a merciful end to this long, confusing thread: UR currently does not contain the feature discussed above: namely,

... after creating an attribute in the Item Attributes pane, separate values can't be listed one after another after the attribute (separated by, say, a semi-colon or the like).

or simply

Originally posted by $bill
An attribute can only have 1 value

[vogelap]

I really appreciate the power and features of Ultra Recall Pro.

However, I think sometimes that all these features requiring under-the-hood tinkering get in the way of the primary functions (as I see them) of URp:

* Capture of data
* Organization of data
* Location of data

My reaction to this thread is "I don't want to have to program my PIM! I just want to be able to willy-nilly dump data into it, organize that data when I have time, and be able to find the data when I need it".

I feel like it's easy to get lost in (almost required) tweaking URp, which dilutes the original purpose of the software: information, knowledge, and document management.

I find my efforts to get into URp thwarted because it's difficult to use for management of information, knowledge, and documents "out-of-the-box"... I launch URp expecting to be able to easily capture data, but end up having to tweak.